"You can't be what you can't see".
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James Harrington
Hi, and welcome to another edition of The MAJOR Difference.
Today we're talking about the transformative power of storytelling in creating positive impacts for equality, diversity, and inclusion, and giving a voice to underrepresented groups.
Our guest Mo Kanjilal is passionate about giving voices to underrepresented groups and making sure diverse role models are seen and heard in the stories that we tell. Mo is a diversity and inclusion business transformer, helping people work better together. She is the co-creator of the multi-award-winning diversity and inclusion company Watch This Sp_ce, as well as being a non-exec director, trustee, writer, conference speaker, and campaigner for equality.
Mo, that's quite a lot of very cool hats you've got there, and we're thrilled to have you share your insights with us today. Welcome to the show, and how are you doing?
Mo Kanjilal
Hi, thanks so much for having me on. I'm doing really well. Thank you.
James Harrington
Well, it's a pleasure having you with us. And I'm sure we're going to cover a lot of ground today. Would you mind just giving us a bit of background on where you started? And how you ended up running and founding Watch This Sp_ce?
Mo Kanjilal
Yeah, sure. So I first of all, worked in corporate. So I studied at Sussex University, studied English, then leapt into a career in tech, so not really connected to English literature. And I initially started in marketing and found that actually, I was much better and enjoyed selling a lot more.
So I then worked in corporate for many years. And it's really funny when I look at it. Now, when I worked in corporate roles, I used to be Vice President of Sales and Marketing for a global tech company, I was always the person that people would say, "oh, you've got all these other projects going on all these things going on". And actually, I've just recreated that since leaving corporate.
So since I left corporate, I worked for a smaller software company in Brighton. And then just before the pandemic had started consulting as a sales director. And as the story goes, it was on a Zoom call in lockdown, where my business partner and I said, actually, it's not just about women in tech, which is something that we've been working on already. We're like, there's there's actually a lot more to this, the world is seeing disruption right now in the workplace. There's more we could do about this. And that really was the start of 'Watch This Sp_ce'. And things have progressed from there. If you'd said to us back in April 2020, Where would it go, we would have had no idea that we'd be where we are now with it. So it's been a real story for us as well.
James Harrington
As I mentioned in your introduction, you're involved in a lot of projects in various sectors from health care through to homelessness, is there a common thread or story that ties all of these roles together for you?
Mo Kanjilal
Yeah, there really is. So, I have a strong belief that if you can help people out of situations, you can really change their lives. So if you look at the things I'm involved in, a lot of it's around helping young people, but also helping people who are at different stages of their career journey. Because I think that there's a lot that can be done to change outcomes for people. And actually telling those stories is very much a key to that, because we only see the stories that someone wants us to see. And actually, those stories are dominated by particular types of stories. And there's so many more to be told. So I'm really keen to bring out those stories and help people to really see how they can change their lives.
James Harrington
And that shift from working in a corporate environment to starting and founding your own business was obviously quite a leap of faith. Was there any one event or moment that was a catalyst for that change?
Mo Kanjilal
There was a catalyst moment in my corporate career. So I'd been at that particular corporation for eight years, and I'd done really well, I was in a senior management role, running a global team, you know, travelling around the world, seemingly the career that I'd always wanted to have. And I reached a point where I thought, I don't really think I want to do this anymore. And actually, the company that I worked for, was bought by a bigger American corporation. And that kind of was the catalyst for me, because that meant that I would have to be... the head office was no longer in the UK, the head office was in California.
And it felt like a time to actually do something different. And it was quite a relief in a way to step out of that environment. Because corporate roles, you know, where you've got a board of shareholders are very hard, you know, it's a lot of hours you have to put in and it's a lot of tough kind of reporting that you have to do. And it was quite a relief to step out of that and say, "actually, what do I want to do with my life?"
James Harrington
And do you miss it?
Mo Kanjilal
Very simple answer to that... no. When I look back on it, I used to go from meeting to meeting to meeting. I used to work, I used to travel, I used to work really late nights, I experienced all sorts of behaviours that I now recognise I shouldn't have been putting up with. No, nothing I miss about it all.
James Harrington
And in your current role, you advocate for diverse role models in storytelling. Could you maybe explain a bit more to us why that's important and how you go about that in your work? Maybe you could share a story of a role model who has been impactful in your life or your career.
Mo Kanjilal
So I've got a strong belief that you have to see people doing the types of things that you might want to do, to be able to believe that you could do those things.
So what I didn't mention was I also mentor for a charity for girls, it's called the Girls Network. And they have a hashtag, which is #youcantbewhatyoucantsee. And the charity is all about mentoring girls to show them what careers they could have and show them like different role models. And I think it's so important that people see different types of people doing roles so that they can imagine themselves doing something like that.
So when I worked in corporate, it wasn't diverse at all. And, you know, it wasn't unusual for me to be the only woman in a meeting, for example. And I always felt that I needed to make sure that I was helping other people come into roles, I was helping them have a more positive working environment.
And for me, I did have a role model. So I had a mentor when I was in corporate. I was part of a kind of talent scheme. And I had a mentor who was the only other woman of colour, I think, in a senior leadership role and she was the HR director. And she really encouraged me to do different things. And she would say things like, "why don't you put yourself forward for that?" And it really showed me the power of having someone showing you that you can do these things, I think it's so important to do that for young people, which is why I'm involved in the charities that I'm involved with, because they're all about changing outcomes for young people.
James Harrington
That's really interesting. So you've actually just answered my next question, where I was going to ask you about how storytelling acts as a catalyst for change. So in terms of your current work at Watch This Sp_ce, could you share an example where storytelling has made a tangible difference in a diversity and inclusion initiative?
Mo Kanjilal
So we tell lots of stories when we work with clients. So when we go to deliver training, when we're trying to convince management teams that this is what they need to work on, we'd very much do that through facts, because people like facts and statistics, but also behind that the stories, it really makes a difference. And I've got a great story about an organisation we worked with.
So they had a board who were very different to their client base; their client base where a lot of young people, young people of colour from very disadvantaged backgrounds, the board were very much not like that they were predominantly white, I think all white, actually quite sort of middle class older. And so they were talking to us about what they could do to change that, how could they encourage different people to join their board, join their leadership team.
And we said to them, you know what, you could put out the usual kinds of things that people say, you know, we welcome people from different backgrounds, we can actually be a bit bolder with it, you could say, "Here's a photo of our board, and here's a photo of the types of clients that we serve, you can see the problem, do you want to help us with that", and they did it, they went for it. And they had a really positive response from it. And their board actually looks quite different now. So it really did impact. And we tell that story to show people how you can actually be a bit bold with these things and show people that it's okay to be a bit vulnerable and honest and say, actually, we've got something to work on here.
James Harrington
So with that in mind, your company actually offers a really cool service, which is the Inclusion Journey Mapping process. Could you maybe tell us a bit more about that? And it sounds like a storytelling technique in itself, to be honest. But how does that help businesses navigate the EDI landscape?
Mo Kanjilal
Yeah, so it is very much about a story in itself, Inclusion Journey Mapping. So when we started the business back in 2020, it took us some time to figure out how we could really help and what was really needed and what the common thread that we saw was that lots of companies and lots of different types of organisations want to do something about diversity and inclusion, but they don't know where to start. And they struggle with what actions they can take and what path they need to follow.
So that's when we developed our Inclusion Journey Mapping. And it's gone through lots of iterations since we've been running the business. And we've now got lots of examples of organisations we've worked with on this. And what we do is, exactly that, we understand the story. So we do some work to have a look at the company and the way they work and sort of policies processes to try and get a picture of where they are. But we also very much engaged the organisation in it too. So we do discovery workshops, we do surveys, we talk to clients and partners, and build up a picture of where we think they are, and then help them figure out what steps they need to take on a journey.
And obviously, we can help with those steps on the journey. But some of it is actually things that the organisation can do themselves as well. And we always make sure there are some quick wins, just that they can show that there's a change because the story that you tell and are working on that is also a story to engage the employees. And so for people who's been engaged they need to see any quick wins to see that this is something where change is happening. And then they can progress and they feel enthused to carry on with the journey.
James Harrington
I'm conscious as well, we're talking about diversity. And could you just maybe talk a bit more about what that means to you? Because I know from a lot of people's perspectives, you immediately jumped to ethnicity or gender, but it's a much wider and nuanced subject than just those two. Could you just talk about what diversity means to you?
Mo Kanjilal
So diversity is essentially the fact that society is made up of all different types of people. And that's in so many ways. So there are protected characteristics under the Equality Act of 2010. And they cover some of the things you've talked about there. So things like race, gender, disabilities, and more. And you can look those up. They're protected by law. But actually, there's also so many other ways in which we're diverse.
If you think about all the people, you know, how different they are. So there's personality types. There's ways we process information, there's our lives, our experiences, the way we've grown up. Things like politics, religion, all these things comprise to sort of make us all different to each other. So that's what diversity is. And then when you go on to inclusion, inclusion is about really including all of those different types of people and perspectives in what you do. So there's kind of two aspects to it.
And I know you used the acronym there [ED&I], but I'm going to be honest, I try not to use acronyms myself, because I think if you use an acronym, and someone listens to that, and they don't know what it means, you start to exclude them already. So try not to do that.
James Harrington
Fair point and note taken. I heard you mention in other podcasts, actually, that diverse teams are 19% more innovative. Could you maybe talk about the story behind that statistic?
Mo Kanjilal
Yes, that's the piece of research that was done by the Boston Consulting Group, it's quite widely used actually in diversity and inclusion. And they do a lot of research to look at what happens when you have diverse teams where different people are included. That crucial thing of not just there being different types of people, how are people included, and there is quite an extensive report that looks at the different ways in which you can include people.
So for example, if you do all of your ideas creation in a meeting, that's only going to suit certain types of people. So you may already be one sort of limiting your options, if that's the way you do it. So to really get that 19% more innovation, you need to think about how to really include all of those different people and perspectives. And if you do that, the stat really makes sense. Because if you think you think about a problem that you're trying to solve, if you're trying to fill a problem, and you include lots of different types of perspectives, you'll debate more options, there'll be creativity, there'll be somebody saying, you know, I don't agree, I see it this way. And through that, you come up with more innovative solutions. So it makes sense, but you don't just get that. So often when we talk to tech founders, they light up at the 19% more innovation. But there isn't a box to tick or a form to fill in. To get that you've got to really work on how to create that inclusive culture where everyone feels that they can contribute their unique perspective and ideas.
James Harrington
Coming back to storytelling, it's often referred to as a bit of an art form. But as you've clearly articulated, that can also be used as a tool for change. So what in your opinion, are the core ingredients of a really compelling story that can drive a positive impact?
Mo Kanjilal
I think there has to be a change that happens in that story that makes people sit up and listen, I think that's the crucial thing. So we tell a lot of stories when we deliver training, because I think it's a really effective way of sort of convincing people and engaging them in what you're talking about. And we have a whole bank of stories that we use, and we're always finding more. But there are really great stories that can help convince you that you need to do something about it. And I'm going to tell you one very briefly, which is the one we use quite often, which is the one that articulates that, how you get... why you need diverse teams, and why how crucial it is.
So there was one of the iterations of the iPhone, so Apple, you know, they must have so many different types of people working for them. Yet, they had a design of phone that must have gone through teams and teams and teams of people before it came to market. And you think about how many millions were spent on that. And yet, when the phone was released to market very quickly, lots of women realised it was too big for women's hands. And so they hadn't thought about the fact that actually, 50% of the market they want to sell to might need to be able to hold the phone. And it shows you that innovation has to include different types of perspectives. Because otherwise you're going to miss things you're gonna have totally, you could spend so much money developing something and then totally miss the market you intend it for. And there are other stories like that around innovation, but I really liked that one because everyone can relate to that one.
James Harrington
And I've listened to some of the conversations you've had on other podcasts. And you've mentioned stories often come from dominant groups which leaves others unheard. In that vein, how can storytelling platforms be democratised to include underrepresented voices?
Mo Kanjilal
We only hear the stories that someone wants us to hear. And that's the case with every kind of story. So that's when you look at which books get published, which films get made, which stories get told to the news, they're all someone's decision, someone's perspective of what story they think needs to be told. And so actually, if we want to hear the real stories, we have to work on that. And we have to acknowledge the fact that there are stories missing from a lot of our narratives, and a lot of the ways we do things. And there are many people that are working on that in terms of history, for example, and the fact that we only have the stories that someone wants us to hear. And actually in our education system in the UK, so many of the stories are just missing, so people don't know actually the reality of what's happened.
For example, if you think about empire, people don't know the stories, they have no idea usually. So we really need to think about how we centre really the stories that need to be told. And there isn't a simple fix to this one. But it's about empowering people and giving opportunities to different types of people to tell their stories. And again, publishing gets a lot of bad press around the books that get published and the books that win awards and the gaps in those stories. There are lots of groups doing something about it, and lots of new publishing houses that are trying to address that. But it's about how do we empower those people that are doing something about it? And when you think about the shift, its power and money that changes those things. So how do we give more money to those publishers that are actually amplifying different voices?
James Harrington
And funnily enough, when we were talking off air, just before we started recording, you mentioned that you're currently in the process of writing a book. Could you tell us a bit more about how that came about and where you are in the journey?
Mo Kanjilal
Yeah, very exciting. Probably the most exciting thing that's happened to us this year. We can't reveal too much yet until there's a sort of cover and a link, but I'll tell you a bit about it. So there's a publisher called Kogan Page. And they were we've been wanting to write a book actually, since the beginning of the business, it's always been on our Trello board. So both Allegra, my business partner and I are writers, and we always wanted to do that. And actually, before we met each other, we always wanted to write a book as well. So it's always been there. And we've worked on several book proposals, never really progressed with it that much. And then early this year, we were approached by our favourite publisher to say, are you interested in writing a book? And so that's how it's happened. And so we're busy working on it now. So the book will be published in September 2024. And we're busy writing it now with lots of deadlines coming up.
James Harrington
No pressure then! How are you finding the writing process? Have you got writer's block yet?
Mo Kanjilal
I'm actually loving it. So luckily for us, we'd actually had a lot of section one sort of written already, because it was things that we'd already been writing about. So that's helped. We've got a lot of work to do to interview different people for case studies and things like that. But yeah, I love it. It's one of my favourite things to do is sit and write.
James Harrington
Well, I very much look forward to reading a copy of the book next year when you're finished. In terms of the challenges faced by people ensuring that stories are told authentically and respectfully, what do you think the key challenges in that space are?
Mo Kanjilal
I think it's one of the things you mentioned in the previous question about saving narratives. So we have to make sure that we tell stories authentically and respect the people whose stories they are. So in my work with the Clocktower Sanctuary, we don't plaster photos of the young people that visit the centre on social media in stories because it's disrespectful to do that. We do tell stories; stories of change are really powerful, and can really make a difference in how much people support the charity. But we always respect the people that we tell the stories about.
So things like changing their names, changing things about them, because they the whole point is that they change the outcome of their life. So they don't want to be defined by story where they were struggling. So you have to just be respectful when you're telling people stories, and make sure they're told authentically and enable people to have their own voice and telling their stories to so we need to really think about how people tell stories, and where they get told, and who controls the narrative. So it's not that I have a huge thing against publishers, but sometimes publishers, it's the narratives very controlled about how a story is told. But actually, you also see some great examples where people really get to tell their story, authentically.
So I'm reading a great book at the moment. I really recommend it. It's called The Shoulders We Stand On by Preeti Dhillon and it's about the stories of black and brown people's resistance in the UK and effectively the shoulders that we stand on, they fought those battles so that we can stand now, and it's a real example of authentically telling stories.
James Harrington
One of the other things that I wanted to touch on today was around the use of languages used in the equality, diversity and inclusion space. And you'll note, I didn't use an acronym there - and thanks for pointing that out to me earlier. But I think the choice of language appropriate and respectful language is quite a daunting subject for a lot of people. Have you got any tips or links or advice on the correct use of language and how to stay current and updated?
Mo Kanjilal
That is one of the top things we're asked by people that we work with is about language, and which acronyms to use and what terminology to use. So when we do our inclusion, journey mapping, one of the early sessions in the discovery workshops is right, let's talk about which terminology you find confusing, what are you finding difficult? Because for a lot of people, they're scared of saying the wrong thing. So they don't know what to say at all. So we get that open out in the open quite quickly.
And the terminology changes all the time. So the terms that people might have accepted to be described as will change as we go through. And we have to just be aware of that and keep up with the latest terminology. So we really encourage people to read widely, follow different kinds of people who will talk about changes in language. But I think there's also an understanding that if your intent is good, that means that if you make a mistake, it's okay. We say that in the training that we do as well that you know, you're not always going to get it right. And that's fine. As long as you're happy to learn, and listen to someone's feedback.
You know, if someone says to you, actually, that term used to describe me, I found slightly offensive, then listen to that, and not, don't be defensive, listen to their perspective, because that's their, their story, and that they may not be happy with that. And we have to accept that and sort of think about the different terminology we use and try not to get stuck in certain acronyms and terminology. That's why. So I didn't notice you didn't use the acronym. That's why I feel quite strongly about that. Because I think a lot of people are quite early in their diversity and inclusion journey. And they hear those acronyms and they think I don't know what that means. And they don't know who to ask, they feel afraid to ask. So I think we can help people by trying to be as clear as we can with language and terminology.
James Harrington
And how do you personally stay current and updated in this space? Is it through learning, reading? For example? Do you trip yourself up at times? In that respect, how do you stay current in this space?
Mo Kanjilal
Definitely trip myself up at times, for sure. But yeah, so I follow lots of different people talk to different people join lots of different types of events, read as much as I can. So as much as I like writing, I also love reading as well. So I read as many books as I can as well, that really helped with staying current on the latest language and terminology.
James Harrington
And look into the future stories can also have negative impacts, if used unwisely or if used by bad actors. And societal fears and cliches exist for this very reason, like biases against hiring older people or women planning families. So how can storytelling counter these narratives?
Mo Kanjilal
I love this question because we like to tell stories, but stories can actually have negative impacts on people too. And so to pick up on one of the points you raise, so for example, if you think about older people, the story that's told is that older people can't use technology, and are stuck in certain ways of working and look like this. And actually, that isn't the truth. And there are some great campaigns that really address that.
So there's a great campaign by an organisation that I can't remember the name of that's lots of women posting a photo of themselves saying, I look my age. Because the thing that gets said to a lot of older women is oh, don't you look young for your age, or you don't look that age, as if there's a perception of that how you're supposed to look once you reach a certain age. And it's similar with the technology. So there are lots of older people that can very happily use technology, you know, they're very confident in it. And so we can get stuck in trying to pigeonhole people through stories, and showing our biases.
So we have to really think about telling stories in ways that actually challenge that type of thinking. So we have a story that we tell when I'm doing training around biases, which is about somebody that I know who is in their 80s, and is probably one of the most tech-savvy people I know, and how you can counteract this story. So we have to be careful of getting stuck into sort of ruts of what we think people should be like if there were a certain demographic.
James Harrington
And another question I wanted to discuss with you today was around the need for getting buy-in from the top in terms of any equality, diversity and inclusion initiatives. And in that respect, what's the compelling story that needs to be told to senior leadership teams to get them on board?
Mo Kanjilal
So we use statistics to help convince people but you have to think about how to use them because people can also be a bit blinded by statistics and not really feel it's relevant to them. So when we're trying to convince people... so if we're talking to a tech leader, for example, if you talk to them about 19%, more innovation from diverse teams and 36% more profit from diverse teams, they light up usually, but they need some stories behind that too, to back that up.
So we make sure we have examples to tell them about as well. And actually, a story that I've been using recently that really gets traction with senior leaders is to put some words on the screen and ask them if they're struggling with it. So it's things like employee engagement, productivity, recruitment, retention, problem-solving creativity, and you can pepper sort of lots of different words, and ask them if they're some of the things they're struggling with. And they'll usually say, yeah, some or most of those is something that they're struggling with. And then say to them did you know all of those things are linked to diversity and inclusion, and then tell them how.
So making that link between the problems that they're facing and how they can solve them through creating more inclusive teams really helps to convince senior leaders that this is what they need to focus on. Because the crucial thing about any work around diversity and inclusion is it has to have buy-in right from the top. There has to be a leadership team that really wants to do this, because otherwise it won't work, it'll fail.
James Harrington
And sadly, we're now coming towards the end of our session. And it's been really enlightening and interesting. So thank you. But just finally, for our listeners who were inspired to maybe start crafting their own stories for positive impact, have you got any top tips for them to just get started?
Mo Kanjilal
Start collecting stories, there are so many of them, I encounter stories every day. Just start making a note somewhere about things that happen and stories that happen because it is stories that really impact people. And I say this to somebody. So I didn't say this at the beginning, my career in corporate was in sales, predominantly. And I used to sell effectively through storytelling, I actually found that the natural way to sell. And it's exactly the same with this. It's the people, you can tell people facts, you can tell people, product features and things like that. But that isn't what convinces them, what convinces them. It's stories about change about how something's impacted somebody.
So if you want to start doing that yourself, start collecting stories where you've seen a change, so that you can start to use them in the way you communicate in every way you communicate. I do it when I'm delivering talks, as well always have stories to tell, because that's what really convinces people. And I saw a great talk by a historian a while ago at Brighton Dome. He's called David Olusoga and he's doing a lot of research around black history. And an audience member asked him a question and said, you know, is this work you're doing? Is this going to convince more people about our history as a country? And he said, no, he said, actually, what will convince people is stories. Its books, its films, you know, really, that's how people remember things and change their perspective on things. Historians can generate lots of facts and evidence and give you lots of insight. Actually, the thing that really convinces people is a strong story of change
James Harrington
Stories are the things we remember. And if you could recommend just one book or article that has influenced your views on storytelling, specifically with regard to equality, diversity and inclusion, what would it be?
Mo Kanjilal
I've got a great example of a book. Yes, it's one I use a lot. It's called Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed. And if you haven't read it, I really recommend reading it. It's such a great example of using stories. The whole book is stories about why you need diverse teams and the power of diverse thinking. And he goes through a whole range of different stories from 911, the England football team, Apple, you know, a whole range of different stories that all convinced you that you really need diversity. And there's a great quote in that book, which is teams of rebels beat teams of clones. And it's all about the fact you need these different people kind of disagreeing with each other and coming up with different ideas.
James Harrington
And funnily enough, when I was doing some research for this podcast, I came across one of your slides from a previous presentation. And then there was a quote from Rebel Ideas on the power of difference. And I'm just going to read it here now, because it really resonated with me personally. And the quote is:
"If we're intent upon answering our most serious questions, from climate change to poverty, and curing diseases, and to designing new products, we need to work with people who think differently, not just accurately."
Mo Kanjilal
I love that quote. Yeah, it's really, really powerful. Yeah.
James Harrington
And do you have any other book recommendations that you think may interest our listeners?
Mo Kanjilal
Yes, I have one other book that I have to mention, which is called What's In a Name by Sheela Banerjee, who's my cousin, who was published in August and that is a book about stories behind people's names. There's a book about storytelling in the book because she traces the history of our family name and our family names and it takes you through the Empire and colonisation and how the names were actually changed. You said that India names were changed by the British, that's really powerful. But she also traces a story of several of her friends names, which takes you through the Russian Revolution. Greek Cypriots, the West Indies, like it's a really powerful story about what's behind everyone's names. So I really recommend reading that too.
James Harrington
Cool. Well, we'll put links to all of these resources in the show notes. So finally, before we leave, what's the one message you'd like your listeners to take away from this podcast? I'm gonna ask this in a slightly different way, if I gave you control of all advertising in the UK for one day. So if I gave you control of every billboard, every TV ad, every piece of consumer-facing advertising in the UK, what would your message be? And why?
Mo Kanjilal
I would want... If I had that power it would be amazing. And what I'd want to do is tell stories of people whose stories have not been heard before, and there are many of them. So find the people that have not been able to tell you their story. And that would be the really compelling message. And there's some system, you've got me thinking about creative ways you could do that. But it would be to find the people whose stories haven't been told yet.
James Harrington
Well, listen Mo, thank you so much for your time today. That ends our session, but it's been really interesting is certainly challenged my thinking and I really appreciate you sharing your experience and expertise with us.
Mo Kanjilal
Thanks so much. It's been brilliant to be on.
